Interviewed and Transcribed by Carla Gozo
Dr. Iwi Ugiagbe-Green is the Faculty Head of Award and Progression Gaps for Business and Law at Manchester Metropolitan. She and Melanie had the pleasure of working together at Leeds Beckett University. Iwi is a powerhouse and deeply caring individual who we respect so deeply at Graft. We are delighted to have had the opportunity to seek her thoughts this Black History Month and learn how we all can be more diverse in our hiring practices and effectively support true D&I in our actions and values.
What barriers have you found that impact black individuals trying to enter or progress in the workplace?
“There are barriers that work on different levels – systemic barriers, the biases and prejudices of other people. For things around recruitment and selection processes, there’s clear research about names for example. I’ve had students that would Anglicize their names to make them more accessible, they remove identification markers from CVs for fear of that discrimination.
“I had a student with a very English-sounding name. He rocked up for his interview and is met with, ‘Oh you’re not what we were expecting,’ meaning they expected someone who was white. How do you expect someone to perform and bring their best self to that situation when that’s the welcome that they receive?”
How have you found that your blackness has become increasingly important as you’ve developed your career in the academy?
“When I first started, I don’t this was something I consciously did, but I was always the only black person in the room – often the only female in the room – and I kind of just did that code-switching and adopted the behavioural norms of everyone around me to make sure I fit in right. My blackness wasn’t something I saw would add value to the team, I just had to be the same as everyone else.
“It wasn’t until I started getting into the research that I was shocked – the data was stark. Black students were not getting placements, not getting internships, not getting grad jobs. I was like, ‘What is going on?’ so I started to do research with black students to learn more about their experiences.
I had a group of 7 or 8 black women, they were second-year students who came to see me, and they said, ‘Iwi we’re so glad you’re here,’ and it took a while for the penny to drop – I was the only black female academic they could see themselves in, the only role model they had. That’s when I realised how important my role and my position actually is.”
How would you say you’ve found that university or business settings can benefit from good D&I strategies?
“There are always people who will ask me, ‘Well, what’s the business case? Tell me the benefit in terms of numbers and turnover and profit.’ Of course, there’s that argument around diversity of thought and how having different perspectives around the table lets you make strategy that reflects your customer base. From a business perspective, there’s a lot to be said.
But my argument is always social justice – it is the right thing to do! Why should I accept that my kids will pay £9000 to come into the system and get less than someone else paying the same amount? It’s the same for companies. We should be opening access to everybody.
This notion of “right person for the right job” drives me insane, because what does that even mean? We recruit people that remind us of us, that make us feel nice and safe. So they’ll go through a ‘robust process' to make sure that that happens and if it just so happens that 99.9% of our employees are white and male then that’s just how it is!”
What would you say is lacking from recruiters and employers in creating accessible systems for hiring?
“For example, I spoke to one big company with some research I was doing and they went, ‘Well we do blind CVs now, we get two people to look at the videos so it’s more than one perspective, and they go through psychometric testing and subjective testing.’ so I asked how they design those and they go, ‘they’re designed based off the performance reviews we currently use and we take the data of people who have been judged to be performing excellent or very good.’
What they don’t get is that you’re trying to fix a problem, but you’re using the existing criteria by which you judge is ‘good’ in selecting people. Make it make sense. I find with a lot of companies they are really well-intentioned, but they’re not actually looking at this problem deep enough to see that it is entrenched in practice and culture. It goes so deep.
Some of it comes back to a will to do the right thing but a fear of risk and its consequences. Some of it is that people actually do just want to maintain the status quo but they don’t want to say that out loud. I say to companies all the time: just own it. You’re either going to do it and do it properly or don’t do it at all. Not doing it is better than pretending you’re going to do it because these are people’s lives.”
When the issue is this deeply entrenched, it might be difficult for businesses to know where to even begin to be part of the solution. What are some specific strategies companies can start implementing?
“Increasingly, there are more black people working in industries they ordinarily couldn’t access. If you have people already within your workforce, speak to them. But you first need to create an environment where they feel safe to do so.
One of the criticisms we’ve seen, even for people like myself, is that you get so far because you’re the “right kind of black”. If you’re able to adopt what is acceptable within a community, you can be seen as one of us. Sometimes you have to do that to survive and protect yourself, but you do not want other black people coming in and feeling like they have to do the same. Really it’s a collective responsibility and has to start somewhere. You have to understand the experiences of the black people working for you in order to move forward.”
Based on your research and observation, how are you feeling about the future of young black individuals entering the workplace?
“I am hopeful. On one level, I remain optimistic because I do feel that there is something quite special about the generation coming through. In terms of social justice being at the heart of their values and the fact that we’re in a digital age means that there are things this generation can do that previous generations maybe had the heart to do, but not the means.
On the other hand, though, I hear the voices of people who came before me say, ‘Well we were here 30 years ago.’ We’re talking about the same issues, how little progress has been made. People don’t like to talk about the uncomfortable stuff and to go beyond talking into action – I’m not entirely convinced.
Still, you know, conversations about race were not something I had as a student and I had to suffer through a lot of that alone. There is now, thankfully, an awareness that that happens. It’s whilst still not good enough, the number of black people in the academy or in corporations, there is a building up of resources around it. Just the fact that people recognize there is a lack and a need is something.”